Transcript

Emma: Welcome to Positive Disintegration, a path to authenticity. In this episode, Chris and I are celebrating our third birthday, and we'll be sharing our musings, insights, and lessons that we've learned over the last year. But I'm not going to tell you exactly what we talk about, because it's our birthday and, well, birthdays are all about surprises. So you'll just have to listen and find out for yourself.

Hello listeners, welcome to Positive Disintegration. I'm Emma Nicholson.

Chris: I'm Chris Wells.

Emma: And Chris, today it's just you and me celebrating our birthday.

Chris: Happy third birthday to us!

Emma: I know, yay!

Chris: It's hard to believe, three years already—wow.

Emma: I know, it's, you feel very, I feel very old, and it seems like it's been longer than that, but also doesn't feel like it's been [00:01:00] that long. It's kind of weird.

Chris: It's been amazing. I have to say, it's been three wonderful years of doing this podcast with you. It's been such a pleasure.

Emma: It has been. I think part of the reason why it seems like it should be longer is because of the friendship that we developed because we didn't really know each other when we started. But then you look back and think, shit, I didn't think we were going to get past ten episodes and now we've passed sixty episodes and it's kind of crazy.

Chris: Yeah, it is. I think I did believe that we would have a number of episodes. I didn't go into this thinking that it wasn't gonna last or be successful, but I just—I hoped. I don't know that I could have predicted that we would become such close friends and that I would love you like I do, and that we would have such an amazing fan base. It's such an amazing community, too, at this point.

To prepare for this [episode], I was reading some of the stuff I've written about the podcast over the past few years. I looked at some of the feedback that we've gotten from people and just even being aware, in your Adults With Overexcitabilities group, of the posts, and the people who've been around this whole time—it feels so special.

Emma: It does. I think one of the exciting things for me is the people that it's drawn into the theory and have now become part of this amazing little community. That was always the hope, but something inside you always sort of says, nah, it's never gonna happen. And then it does, and you're like, yay! But it's more just witnessing the growth in people as well, how they develop on their own journey. That's, that's really encouraging, I think.

Chris: It is encouraging. It is amazing to see the growth in the people around us too.

Emma: And also our own growth, I guess, because I think when you first come to the theory, you think you've got a handle on it. And you go, “Yes, I'm in a better place,”

But then you keep doing the work and keep surprising yourself about how much further you can go and how much more you've got to learn and grow and how much more work there is on yourself.

Chris: Yeah, I just thought while you said that it's good to cultivate a healthy inferiority toward yourself. Where you have some clarity on how far you still have to go without it feeling like a burden or a problem. One of the things that I've written about multiple times in my journals over the past several years is that I have a clear view that I have such a long way to go still to get to where I want to be, personally and professionally. But I feel like this is such a joyful journey to be on that it's not a bad thing. It feels like such a blessing in my life to even have this [00:04:00] opportunity for growth.

Emma: I suppose that's been one of my mindset shifts over the past year, since we did our last birthday episode. Viewing the parts of me that I guess might seem dark, and you might think need fixing and saying, actually, those things serve to give me dynamisms. As you said, the inferiority to yourself or you just dissatisfaction with yourself and learning to love those parts. It takes time to do it and really embrace the “I'm not broken” mantra and lean into that stuff and say, yeah, I see the purpose of this stuff. This is the stuff that keeps me growing.

Chris: Yes. And I know how far I've come, which is something we'll touch on later, but that's been on my mind a lot—how much has changed in my life over the past few decades, especially. That's what has brought me to the work that I do now. And it's why I can talk about positive disintegration, not only [00:05:00] from a scholarly perspective, but also from the lived experience, having been through it so many times.

Emma: This time of year also marks a pretty key milestone for you personally as well: your 25th anniversary.

Chris: Yeah, this month is the 25th anniversary of a huge moment of illumination I had on October 15th, 1999, when I decided that I couldn't be an addict anymore. I still remember so vividly that moment. I was actually moving my parents out of their house, and I was in their driveway. I had been smoking crack for months. I had years of addiction at that point and my life had become so miserable and kind of desperate in some ways.

In the weeks leading up to that [moment], I had started to imagine a different [00:06:00] life in my mind, but I didn't have [awareness]. I don't think I was doing it on purpose. It's not like I was trying to envision a new life, it was just happening naturally in my imagination. But in that moment in their driveway, I just knew that I couldn't be who I was anymore. And from that moment or that next day, I knew that I was going to go to bed and I was going to wake up the next day and be different.

I had a really clear view thanks to all the daydreaming I had been doing in my mind about what that would look like. I knew that I wasn't going to smoke crack anymore. I wasn't going to use cocaine, heroin, methamphetamine. I was done with those drugs. I have not done those things since then.

It was the start of a new life after that moment of clarity that I had. So, it's mind blowing to me to think that that was 25 years ago. First of all, it makes me feel old because [00:07:00] wow, how could that be? I'm 51. That was half a life ago, of misery. In my twenties, I went through that whole time—several years—of being in and out of the hospital, as a psychiatric patient, on disability, using drugs, just doing anything I could to escape reality. And part of the decision I made in that moment was that I wasn't going to run from reality anymore.

I was going to be honest with myself. I was going to face myself and the truth. The truth of how I was living and who I was, and I was going to do things differently. Part of that was definitely being honest with other people and myself. Taking accountability and responsibility for myself and my actions.

It sounds so simple to say it now. The shift felt easier in that moment than it had [before]. I had tried to quit using drugs [00:08:00] so many times prior to that. I had been to [inpatient and outpatient] treatment multiple times. I had been in and out of recovery—Narcotics Anonymous, especially, but it wouldn't stick because I wasn't ready. I hadn't had that moment yet of knowing that I didn't want to live that way anymore. I didn't stick with the program. I wasn't technically in recovery. I still smoked marijuana after that moment of “I'm not going to use hard drugs anymore,” but I was a whole different person.

I have thought a lot over the past month or so about the fact that this anniversary is here, and it's amazing to me that it's been so long.

Emma: I suppose the vividness in your mind kind of makes it seem fresher than it actually is, but then you can look at all the progress that you've made since then.

Chris: Well, yeah. I'm multiple different people since then. Because after that point, I had to move to a new place, actually. I did start living a different way of life. I was [00:09:00] healthier, but I still had so far to go. And when I think about how many times I've been through positive disintegration since that moment of my life 25 years ago.

Wow, many, many. I'm so different than I was ten years ago, fifteen years ago, twenty years ago. And actually, like I mentioned to you before we started recording, this month also marks the 15th anniversary of my father's death. So, he lived ten more years after that moment where I stopped using hard drugs. He died from alcohol use. And I've talked about that before on the podcast, in Episode 34 Mental Health Awareness.

There's so much to say about what I was like 15 years ago when he died. It was the last time I thought about suicide. I was leaving my work at that time and realizing that child welfare in [the field of] [00:10:00] social work wasn't going to work for me.

I needed to find a new way forward. That led to a year of drinking too much and writing a book that I never should have made public and questionable decisions. Still trying to find a path forward. Even though I was doing so much better than I had been 10 years before, I still had so far to go.

When I think about all of these iterations of who I've been… Wow, it's so much work to do this kind of personal growth living. This positive disintegration way of life.

Emma: It's funny you've brought up like 25 and 15 because this year I've just realized right around this time, 15 years ago, was when my life completely financially tanked out and it led to me leaving my ex and getting out of that horrible relationship.

Which then led me to having [00:11:00] a positive disintegration where I had to sort of rebuild my life. And it also marks five years since I had my first major spiritual experience and had what I call the big one, the big disintegration that led me to the theory. So it's a funny year for multiples of five anniversaries.

Chris: Wow, that's pretty cool, actually, that we both have these anniversaries to think about tonight.

Emma: Yeah, and just thinking back about how much of a different person I was before those events happened, like it kind of spins me out and makes me think about what Dabrowski says about, you know, essence and existentialism where you, you've always got that essence of who you are and you feel like there's like this little nugget inside you of authenticity that remains, but like so many layers on top of that shift and change through the whole disintegration process.

Chris: Yeah, it's interesting you say that because even when I was [00:12:00] using drugs heavily 25 years ago, that essence of me was still there. That's something worth exploring in my writing.

That actually may be a good segue to the other thing that I wanted to address tonight for our listeners, which is my absence of writing on Substack since the end of July. When I think I made my last real post because we've been moving.

I took a trip with my partner, Jason, at the end of July to Madison, Wisconsin, to think about moving here. And we decided to do it. We got home at the very beginning of August and just went with it and prepared to move. We moved out of our house almost a month ago. Now, we are living in the Madison, Wisconsin, area. Our house in Colorado is for sale and we have been going through this [00:13:00] massive transition.

Emma: Big transition and throwing out like three forests worth of paper along the way.

Chris: I donated more than 50 boxes of books, and I did get rid of a lot of my paperwork that I had saved over the years. A real paring down of my possessions and thinking twice, three times about everything that we brought here. There's still stuff that needs to go.

But yeah, it's been a huge downsizing of our lives and in a great way. We're so happy in our new place. Our son moved here with us. And it's interesting because all these things are connected. So, 15 years ago, my father died, and my mom lived with us in our home in Colorado for the past eight and a half years.

I'm so grateful we had these years of her living with us because it really let us heal our relationship with each other. We both have grown so much. There was so much [00:14:00] trauma with my dad and his death and with me and my mom, it was so complicated.

To have had these years together to grow together and improve our relationship the way we have was really special. Now, she's moving to California and having her own new life and living near her friends. I'm so happy for her that she's going to have that opportunity to be with people she cares about who aren't us. I feel really excited about that.

Emma: Yeah, I think she's done as much healing in the past as you have. So, I'm excited for Chris's mom too. Hi, Chris's mom.

Chris: I know, right? It's good. It's been such a period of growth for my family.

Emma: While you were having your physical pare down and shift, I was post—I think post the Congress, shit sort of fell apart for both of us for a while because mentally I kind of had a bit of a meltdown. [00:15:00] And a burnout because I had too many things on my plate. I was feeling too many things and had some confrontations. I had to think about enforcing boundaries and what I could cut down on and even for a while on social media.

In the Adults with Overexcitabilities group, I was like, guys, I'm taking a hiatus. I can't deal with this shit at the moment and I'm going through some things. I don't have any spoons yet. I'm waiting for the cosmic dishwasher to finish its cycle. So, I have more spoons again, but I can't deal. And yeah, it led me to—

I sent out to my mailing list today a blog that I did about having to confront my shadow beast because I got to that bad of a space that I started in that whole self-punishment cycle again, and had to take time out to deal with that. I had to take time out to journal and figure out all my stuff around why I [00:16:00] don't enforce boundaries and why I can't say no.

So, yeah, it seems to be a theme that we were really busy leading up to the Congress. We hit the Congress, that got done, and then it's like, right, other things in our life need dealing with now.

Chris: I am excited to read your blog. It was too funny to me that you published—you sent your message and shared about it—a minute before we started this recording. So, I haven't another chance to read it. But I'm looking forward to it because I know that that was a tough period for you.

I actually feel bad because listening to you talk about it just now. I thought about the fact that I kind of brought in some challenging stuff at the moment when you did not have any bandwidth to share on social media. I'm like, oh, well, let me take this opportunity to share something really intense and problematic on social media and, I apologize, I guess. I take that back. I “kind of apologize.” What does that even mean?

Emma: Well, you [00:17:00] apologize tentatively throwing out there, but you don't need to.

Chris: I did feel bad.

Emma: Well, what was going to happen was going to happen. The fact that I didn't have the headspace to deal with it at that point didn't mean it wasn't supposed to happen. It just meant I was not in a good headspace and maybe it's probably a good thing. I guess it forced me to stay out of it. I felt all sorts of ways about it because I was low, and I'm like, ooh, freaking out a little bit, but it really forced me to stay out of it.

I don't have the space to deal with it. And I suppose that's good in a way because sometimes you need to keep your nose out of other people's shit, you know.

Chris: I suppose. Yeah, it's such a challenging issue that I suppose it's true that it was just as well that you weren't up for saying a lot about it. Because things needed to be said and shared, but I don't know that they needed to really be expounded on a lot.

Emma: No, and it took away my compulsion to either white knight, back you up or else [00:18:00] go into peacemaker mode and try and smooth everything out, so everybody's happy, which it's never going to fucking happen. That was one big lesson that I had over this last year. It came up a number of times and sometimes I think when the universe keeps shoving stuff in your face multiple times, it's quite important and maybe you should fucking pay attention to it.

But it was about how values can clash, and this came up in the workshop that we did at the Dabrowski Congress about values. People were asking, well, what do you do when you've got two different values to set that seem to be in conflict? It's like, sometimes you have to work through that shit and you're not always going to get it a hundred percent perfect. And you have to make compromises and balances and step back and take a look at stuff. This situation was where other people were sort of saying, “Oh, you're not living your values.”

It's like, well, maybe our values are clashing between people. Maybe we have the same [00:19:00] values, but we execute them differently.

So, it was a whole heap of lessons in just because you believe a thing doesn't always mean that there's one course of action that will express that value adequately. Or that everybody's always going to choose the same course of action to back that value up. And it's helped me see how much granularity and complexity there is in something that often we assume is really fucking simple. Which is values. You know, you'll have people that would say that, Oh, all humanity should have the same set of morals.

It's like, no, and even if we do, how we express that's going to end up very differently, you know? How one person acts from a place of compassion might directly conflict with how another person acts thinking they're also acting from a place of compassion. As I say, the road to hell is paved with good intentions, [00:20:00] right?

So, that was a thing that came up, and it actually validated me why positive disintegration is such a hard friggin’ process. Why finding your personality deal is such an arduous journey full of hard work and takes many years. This is why—because it's complicated. This shit's complicated.

It's not easy. You're not gonna nail it the first time and it's not simple.

Chris: Absolutely. Just listening to you over the last minute, I would say so much ran through my mind. One thing that ran through my mind was just that I've been thinking a lot about it from the perspective of, we're about to have another election here in the United States and values are at the heart of it.

Tthere's so much polarization here. But at the end of the day, it's about values and that's what we're voting on this year. That's a huge thing. When you think about the difference in values between the [00:21:00] candidates we have. I don't want this to be political, but it's been really tough for me because, over the past couple of years, coming out as nonbinary, accepting this marginalized status.

When I'm walking down the street in my old neighborhood that we just moved from and I'm going by all these Trump flags flying in front of these houses and I'm just like, okay, I know how you feel about people like me. It really started to get to me living in a community where there were so many conservative people who don't share my values.

I am happier here in my new neighborhood where I'm not seeing the Trump flags and, feeling like I'm around people who would see what I stand for as problematic. I couldn't live like that anymore. It really was getting to me.

Emma: Understandably so, and [00:22:00] this is the thing about values are fucking complex and to think that someone can hold these beliefs that are so polarly opposite and sometimes in the name of the same thing that you actually purport to believe in. So, this is an outsider view on American politics and it may not land, but it's no surprise to anyone that's listened to Jim Jeffries, I would say, because he went viral for his little rant about gun control, but I see the same people who want to ban abortion because they, you know, won't somebody think of the children?

It's like, fuck it, how many school shootings do you have over there? Like, you purport to care about life, but at the same time you're out there turning for gun, like, what are you doing? So sometimes we look at [00:23:00] actions and say, what in the fuck is going on here. Because when I look at that contrast very differently to my moral standpoint, since like, yeah, I care about life too, but how that translate out is very, very different.

Chris: That's right. Okay, listeners, we didn't mean to turn our anniversary episode into this political discussion, but it's just reality and it's not something to run from or be afraid of. I mean, this is who we are and how we feel. And the United States is an absolute shit show right now. I don't think there's any way around it.

It's a disaster here and I don't know what it's going to take for things to get better. I have the sad, dreadful feeling that things are going to have to get worse before they get better. It always comes back to, for me, the fact that I have a child who's 18 years old and [00:24:00] it's hard to see the world that his generation is inheriting from us.

Emma: Well, things shift.

Chris: They do, but it takes time.

Emma: As quickly as the rise of the podcast bros happened, they can fall over, you know. Rome fell over. There's always hope. But I think it's good sometimes to look at these things simply because they highlight at a very, I guess, amplified, big scale.

Some of the stuff that comes out of the theory, it's like if we don't sit and question these values, if we don't sit and question our actions, if we don't look at how they play out, and understand that manifestations even of the same values can conflate, like, we're not, Addressing the reality of our moral landscape, so it can be used as a case in point to say, well, can I apply that thinking and that recognition in more subtle ways across my personal relationships?

So, you know. Maybe in a big circular way, it was helpful for the [00:25:00] listeners.

Chris: Hopefully. I'm definitely re-thinking my life right now, this autumn and kind of doing things differently than I had been. I think the move has helped me get some things into perspective around what's important to me right now, and spending more time with my family is important to me right now.

I do look forward to writing again on Substack. I really have missed it, honestly, and I've tried a couple times to produce posts, but I couldn't. I didn't have the mental bandwidth for it. I was so locked into the tasks of moving and getting us settled here that it was all I could focus on.

Now, this week actually has been the first week that I've been able to work again and re-engage with my professional life. Which is nice and it has felt really good and it feels so good to be recording with you tonight in my [00:26:00] new office, for the first time in this place. So, wow, that's nice.

I am happy with the new place we're in. It's much smaller than the house that we left. We're renting for now and we're going to get a new place probably within a year again and move again, but it won't be like the move here that was—it took so much effort. It'll be a much simpler one.

Emma: Look, all this shows is when we think about the growth and the realizations and challenging ourselves and even saying, maybe I have to step back from this and take a bit of a pause because I can't just plow on and do everything. And look, I applaud you for not pushing out shit content when you didn't have it in you to do it.

So, yeah, but it makes us rethink ourselves, and that was another thing that I've learned over the course of the year. Particularly off the back of the episode we recorded with Michael, which I know [00:27:00] both you and I consider a highlight. About how we talk about levels and how we perceive them and looking at the cyclic nature of disintegration.

We're really living that as an example. You’ve got to go back and you've got to question things. You've got to make changes. You've got to figure out how that change is going to pan out for you. And it's like an ongoing process.

We talked about the level IV trap and stuff before. Like, charging the theory, thinking you're at level four, uh uh, no, you aren't. So, yeah, I think all this just proves we spend half our lives, I mean, you spend your entire life, right? This is your profession—living, breathing theory. You're the most conscientious journaler I've ever met in my life.

And yet we're still going, got to rethink my stuff, got to reassess my values, got to go through my stuff, got to have another meltdown. What we've both been through this year just [00:28:00] sort of pulls that out about like, don't get stuck in a level, like just treat this as this ongoing flowing life lesson.

Chris: Yes, that's right. I love that. Thanks for bringing up—it was a highlight for me to have Michael on the podcast since our last anniversary episode. That was really cool. And I do think that we recorded it this week last year.

I can't help but mention that Michael is my neighbor now. I don't even know if I should talk about that actually, but yeah, why not? I live a couple of miles down the street from him now. So, I really am hopeful that I'll be able to get him to join us again on the podcast and maybe record more stuff with me and us.

Emma: Yes. Bring on December. And January.

Chris: Oh, for sure. Yes. Emma is coming to visit. Woo. And finally. Travel has been purchased. It is happening, people.

Emma: I know. [00:29:00] I'm much awaiting the countdown. I've already told all my family, sorry, won't be around for Christmas. So long, suckers. No, I didn't say that.

Chris: I love that. I sent Bee a message today saying that I'm already thinking about what to put on a sign for you and James. Like when you come down the escalator at the airport, because I've never made an airport sign before, but I feel like this is that kind of occasion.

Emma: Yay! I totally warrant it. I don't want to see you looking, going, and I'm like, one of these people I don't know if it's like, the way my little neurodivergent brain works, but I'm really shit at actually recognizing faces. So, I have this problem at work where I see people on Teams meetings all the time and then I get in the office and I meet them face to face and there's something in my brain that just does not compute. So I'm like super worried I'm going to get to the airport and go, I can't fucking recognize Chris.

Chris: If you can't [00:30:00] recognize, now I'm like, well, maybe I won't make the sign. No, I'm just kidding. I do want to make the sign because I think that'll be fun, but you'll recognize me. I will be the one walking up to you by the time you reach the bottom of the escalator to be like, Emma, James, hello!

Emma: You have to make a sign anyway, cause I'm titchy. I'm wider than I am tall. I'm tiny. No, I'm not that wide, but I'm not that tall either. I need to see it.

Chris: I can't wait. I'm so psyched for you guys to get here. Can't wait to meet James. Very excited.

Emma: Me too.

Chris: I can't wait to hang out with you and Michael together, and we could talk about theory and hopefully get him to record something. We will.

Emma: And I'll get to meet Jack and Jason and Champ finally, who always barks during our podcast, and I'll be able to give him scritches.

Chris: Yes. Oh, Champ. He'll be so happy. And we have a cat named Loki. You'll get to meet him [00:31:00] too.

Emma: Yay. So that will be our highlight of this year. So, I just wanted to talk about some of the highlights that we had over the past year since we're doing a birthday episode, a nice little recap would be good.

Chris: I think that actually it started with the Harry Potter episode with Katy and Emily.

Emma: Yeah, that was, that was a highlight for me. That was nice to have friends on and, and talk about Potter.

Chris: That was fun. I enjoyed finally getting to meet them and having that conversation. I think it was really important because this is another one of those values issues is the Harry Potter situation with She-Who-Can't-Be-Named, so transphobic and problematic.

Even as we were moving, we let go of a lot of Harry Potter memorabilia that we chose not to keep anymore. And especially my son, too, isn't interested in keeping it. I feel like he also has [00:32:00] lost his enthusiasm for the fandom, unfortunately. And so, having that episode with them was great because we were able to name that, talk about it, and still find value in the characters and the stories and have that great discussion.

Emma: And I guess that's been the whole flavor of Potterversity for quite a while. It's like, how do we like, particularly people who either grew up with the series or it got them through really rough moments in their life. With me, if I didn't have those books, I don't think I would have made it through some of my darkest moments.

How do we take that and get the meaning out of the books that we want to take away as readers, but not support She-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named, you know? And I'm going through a similar thing. It's like, yeah, I want to get rid of all my merch and give it away. And I definitely haven't bought anything for a very [00:33:00] long time.

Because it's striking that balance again of values of, well, what does this thing mean to me? What are the good messages I can get out of the books? What are the messages of inclusivity and even disintegration we talked about that I can take away from these texts. And yet how in my life can I not support someone who's a transphobic fuckwit.

Chris: Exactly. Yeah, it's tough. It's a tough balance right now, but I am happy that we did that episode and had that conversation. I thought it was great. And I could see having another one.

Emma: Yes, we'll have to get him back. What else did you like note as a highlight?

Chris: I loved the conversation with Deborah Ruf. And Deborah, I appreciate her, has become a friend, we have good contact with each other. She actually has a new book. Well, she's actually broken her big recent book [00:34:00] up.

The first one is coming out this month and it's going to be called Losing Our Minds and I'll put a link in the show notes to the episode, and the new book that's coming out. It'll be shorter and more accessible for people. So, that was a great episode. I thought that all of our episodes over the past year went well. We did the Gift-a-Palooza presentation together. That was the next one.

Emma: That was the first time we presented together.

Chris: Yeah, that was great to present together. I loved doing that with you and we released that as an episode.

Emma: Summer Cowick was the first time that we had outtakes and I learned how to say St. Louis.

Chris: That's hilarious. Yes. That's so funny. And, we had Laura Stavinoha on, to talk about voice.

Emma: Yeah.

Chris: The voice episode was great. I loved it. And I was so happy to meet her in person at the Congress and get to spend time with her. So, that was great. I [00:35:00] feel like I'm saying great too much, but it's okay. It's evening for me. It's been a long day.

Emma: It's great. It's fine. It's great. Yeah.

Chris: Fucking great. Yeah.

Emma: Kaitlin Smith, who has been referenced quite a few times since Kaitlin actually came on.

Chris: Yeah. She just got referenced in Sheldon's episode, which came out this month.

Emma: And Joy Lawson Davis. Joy mentioned Kaitlin and Kaitlin's website as well in.

Chris: Oh, in her session at Congress session, yeah. Yes. So yeah, Kaitlin, that was another fantastic episode, I thought. So, Autoethnography for Personal Growth came after Kaitlin's episode. I loved getting to do an episode about autoethnography. That was really great for me and I'd love to do more.

Emma: And that was something we've had like a lot of questions and I [00:36:00] suppose almost led you to doing your courses because there was so much interest in autoethnography.

Chris: That's right. And the course started over the past year and it's going well, and it's a lot of work. I have found it hugely challenging, but I'm really enjoying it and loving the contact that I'm having with the two cohorts.

Emma: I'm just looking at two episodes together, which one was we did a preview of our workshop, which I loved doing that workshop at the Congress. But it's also backed up by the Building Better Social Worlds with Abbie and Sergej from CMM. And that was another special thing that came out in the Congress was that partnership of doing the international hosting with Sergej. And I honestly couldn't have asked for a better co-host. And it was nice to have that relationship built out of that.

Chris: Yes. I [00:37:00] completely agree. That was so great. It's been really neat. The more we talk about this and I wrap my head around the relationship building that we've done and getting to know these people, having them on the podcast or, you know, the Congress was so special.

 I have felt like it's been a really wonderful year of community building and I know that it's only going to continue.

Emma: Not only the community building, but our friendship, getting the Congress on track and seeing that get delivered. It was fantastic. It really highlights the importance of relationships, which is a note that I had in my book draft by both you and Michael.

Relationships, don't forget it's all about relationships.

Chris: It really is. It's true. Because relationships are so important to me personally and I really prioritize them. I care about people. I have a tendency to think that there's [00:38:00] more there than there really is with some people, and I think there is an authentic relationship when there isn't one. I've had to really be careful with my mind and imagination and to check reality in some cases to make sure that the relationship is really there and that there's a mutuality. Because if there's not, it can be, I don't want to use the word trap again, but a problem.

Emma: I hear that. And I guess that's a particular thing overexcitable people have got to look out for because we form such strong attachments, that sometimes you feel more ways about a person than they actually feel about you.

I guess, as you said, you've got to assure that there's mutuality there or go in with acceptance and say, maybe I am going to feel ways about people that they're not going to feel [00:39:00] about me. And that's okay. As long as you are prepared to love unconditionally and generously. And not expect reciprocation for that.

Sometimes that can work and sometimes that's not fulfilling or maybe it turns toxic, but you know, again, it comes back to having boundaries, rethinking your shit, and maybe having a little meltdown and a reset as well.

Chris: Well, I have been writing in my journal, I've been mapping out a plan for posts that are coming where I kind of go into this a bit. And I'm going to give examples of just the way that I sometimes see more in people's words than they mean. I have an overly optimistic worldview, I would say, compared to the norm. I am learning to temper that a little with [00:40:00] just trying to be realistic, I guess.

But like you said, it doesn't mean that we have to feel the same way about each other necessarily. It's complicated, right? There are all these variables at play, but for me, one of the things is that I have decided to not be treated poorly by people.

I've recognized that I can shut out the noise if I need to, and I don't have to be everyone's friend on social media. I don't have to pay attention to voices that I don't want to. I get to filter what comes into my inner world and space. So, I'm being much more liberal in applying that at this point and choosing to block people, choosing to unfollow people and choosing to not engage with people when I don't feel like it's serving me well in my mental health.

Emma: I kept coming back to Sheldon's episode, but I got a lot out of that and [00:41:00] he said something really pertinent. People could give feedback that they don't like his podcast. It's like well, it's not for them. I think sometimes you have to, as you say, you can't be everybody's friend.

Sometimes you've just got to be you, do things that you know are right and do align with who you are authentically and with your values and accept that because of that complexity in values and how people perceive them and how people interact and complexities in relationship. It ain't always going to land.

But that's okay, my friendship might not be for you. It's just going to be how it is. And maybe you're not part of the target audience. Sometimes that's hard to accept and then move on from that. But I guess you have to think it's like, do I really want to maintain that relationship?

Particularly if there [00:42:00] is this like misalignment in values or we can't see eye to eye. Or they're expecting you to be someone that's not authentically you, because if you try to be that person they want you to be, they don't love you anyway. They're just loving some imagined version of you that doesn't exist.

Chris: Yeah, luckily, I'm not the kind of person who could even be anything but me. So, sorry. I'm not for everyone, and I have learned to accept that. I'm okay with it. That's fine.

I'm looking at the list of our episodes still. I want to mention that we finally made a Dabrowski 101 [video and episode]. This is something that I have meant to do for ages and we finally did it.

Emma: We did. And got it out just before the Congress.

Chris: Yeah, it was so challenging. The theory is huge. It's so deep. There's so much to [00:43:00] it. I could go on and on about it. One of the things that I've been loving about the course is creating the modules because I am so in the weeds. I have so much to share.

I'm finally getting an opportunity with this group of people to share resources to tie it all together, which makes me happy in a way that is kind of hilarious. I'm not sure how relatable it is for most people, but I love being in Dabrowski's words. I love being in Michael's words. I love reading about their influences. I love reading the interviews I've done. I love the material. I love my archive. That's what Michael would say. He would say, “Well, you love your archive, and you love being in it and messing around in there.” And I do.

So, it felt good to finally produce Dabrowski 101. Obviously, I watched it and criticized myself, thought all the things I wish I'd said differently, thought about all the things I could have said and didn't. But [00:44:00] the podcast over these past three years has helped me be a little less perfectionistic and to be a little more forgiving and compassionate with myself and to realize that we always have another chance to say more.

There are future videos and podcast episodes and other media and writing. I know I'll have plenty of opportunities to share my voice and our voices. And so it's all good.

Emma: Yeah. You can't be a perfectionist around me cause I'm sloppy as fuck for a start. But for a second—

Chris: I don't know about that at all, people.

Emma: But for a second, it's like, if you're going to live this theory, like really live it and go, okay, I'm going to embrace always learning and always growing and growth mindset and challenging and breaking down and rebuilding what I know, then perfectionism is the bane of your fucking existence.

Cause all that does is draw a line in the [00:45:00] sand. And say, this is as good as it's going to get, and it's never going to get any better. And then you look at it and go, Oh my God, it's not perfect. And that's as good. I'm like, no, there's, there's always more opportunities down the road.

I think I brought this up in response to Michael and Tosh. And I might've covered this off in my keynote where I said, even at level V, you have to see a matured tree when you look at growth and recognize that matured tree is still growing. You may not see it. It may be more subtle, but yeah, if it ain't growing, it's dead, let's face it. It might not be as dramatic as the change from seedling, the sapling, to tree, but it's still growing.

It's still putting out new shoots and dropping dead wood and producing fruit and flowers. So I think that's part of it is like perfectionism is a shackle don't let it [00:46:00] tether you to despair.

Chris: I think that's a really beautiful way of putting it with the mature tree and yeah, you've been an excellent influence on me.

You've told me many times not to let myself be a perfectionist, and I think I'm doing so much better with that since I've known you and since we've been doing the podcast. Before we did the podcast, I was so afraid of really using my voice with the theory, of saying what I really think and putting it out there.

I had seen what Michael's been through. The relentless criticism that he's dealt with—that is so unjust in my opinion and problematic in its own right. Which is another whole episode in itself or beyond. I can thank you and these past three years of podcasting for finding my voice and not being afraid. So, thank you.

Emma: You're most certainly welcome, but thank [00:47:00] you for the reciprocal gift that you give me of knowing a whole heap of shit. And just when I think I've got this nailed down and then you challenge me at it and say, is that really right, though? And then I have to go back and look at it again. And every time I have to go back and look at something again, I learn more, and I grow more.

You have accelerated my development in a way that wouldn't have been possible if I'd just been exploring this theory on my own. And it's not just the fact of sponging off your expertise, and learning directly from you, which I have, but also you pushing back on, “Are you sure that's right? Go and have another look at it.” It has really forced me to strive for something better.

Chris: What you just said really made me think of a couple things and one is that you are so able to hear feedback and to self-reflect and be able [00:48:00] to rethink. That's part of what's such a pleasure to work with you.

When I was younger, I think one of the problems I had was that I couldn't take criticism. There was a lot of fragility in my inability to hear the truth about myself from other people. The whole time that I spent thinking of myself as mentally ill, I would say that that was true. And I couldn't hear it. I just couldn't. People tried to tell me that I wasn't really mentally ill and I couldn't even hear that at the time. I couldn't. So, that's been a whole process of being able to take feedback and, to even hear it, let alone be able to self-reflect and grow from it.

I was talking with Michael a few weeks ago, with one of his friends, and I was telling his friend about this anniversary that we started talking about at the beginning of the episode. It's been 25 years since I was using hard drugs. [00:49:00] [His friend] didn't know that about me and he was surprised to hear it.

He asked me about how I came to the theory, and I said, well, I discovered it ten years ago. And it totally changed my life because it helped me reframe from thinking of myself as mentally ill to realizing I wasn't broken.

If you're listening to the podcast, you know my story. I don't have to tell you. But I said to Michael, it wasn't just discovering the theory, it was getting to know him personally, too, that was so important for me. Because for some reason, I've been able to hear hard things about myself from Michael in a way that I haven't from anybody else.

It's helped me grow so much in the time that I've known him. Wow. And he said, “Well, you never know what's going to lead someone to having that readiness you had with me. It's a mystery.” And it's true. It's so hard to predict, but like I said to him, I had a lot of relationships that prepared me to be his friend and to have him as a mentor and to grow with [00:50:00] him. It's an ongoing process and it's all about relationships.

Emma: It is all about relationships, even values, like if you're the last person on earth, you don't need values because you don't have to give a fuck about how you behave because there's no one around. If we want to have relationships with people, we need to think of how we're showing up.

Chris: It's true. I feel grateful that we have gotten to this point where we are right now. I'm really amazed by our numbers. I sent you two charts this morning with our cumulative growth, and I thought they were amazing.

Emma: Which I also really appreciate, and I guess that's the last relationship we haven't talked about is the relationship with listeners. Even though sometimes we don't hear from them, and if you are listening out there, I would encourage you to comment on our social, drop us an email, whatever. We'd love to hear you [00:51:00] and even if it's just to say, “Hi, I'm here, I've been listening,” but it's really good to know that obviously it's making a difference for people and that's what really drives this and keeps it going.

Chris: Well, yeah, for sure.

Emma: The muse as it were.

Chris: Yeah. The muse. That's one way to say it. That's how I wanted to end this episode—by talking about the listeners and the feedback that we've had. I can't articulate adequately how humbling it's been to get some of the messages that I've gotten from you listeners over the past three years.

I know that the people we're reaching with this work… I am so humbled by you. I'm so glad that you reach out to me and tell me what you really think and how you resonate with what I'm saying. That you see yourself in my story. For some of you, that you have [00:52:00] never [before] had this experience before of feeling seen in somebody's story and so, I can't tell you how important that's been to me and how meaningful it is because I have always felt like such a freak. Like I did not belong in this world, and so I know what it's like to have that feeling. I'm glad that we're connected and please, as Emma just said, always feel you can reach out to us if you want to.

We would love to hear from you and whether that's social media, email, whatever, please do feel free to reach out. Just know that sometimes it takes us time to get back to you and we apologize for not always being swift in our replies.

Emma: Yes, just because we can't get to it in a hurry doesn't mean we don't appreciate it.

Chris: We do appreciate it. I have a whole folder of positive feedback and it's really amazing. And I'm so, I keep saying grateful, humbled, all of these things—honored. [00:53:00] Honored that we're connected.

Emma: That's a good one. And a good note to end on, I guess. So, thank you, Chris. This has been a great chat and it just goes to show how valuable this whole experience is for us and not just for the people listening. I'm very grateful to you and honored to work with you, to pilfer your word, but it's absolutely true. So, thank you for the last three years.

Chris: Thank you. I was sitting here thinking that I love you.

Emma: I love you too. And I mean it every episode when I say it's always a pleasure because it always is.

Chris: Totally. It's such a pleasure. Right. So, I always think, yeah, obviously. It is such a pleasure. This work with you is the best and we need to, I keep saying this, but I need to steal you away from your day job. We need to do this full time. [00:54:00] And I vow that we will find the money to do it. This is definitely one of my priorities.

Emma: I'm waiting like a maiden in a tower, guarded by a dragon, for my knight to come and slay the dragon and free me.

Chris: So please, benefactor, what are you waiting for?

Emma: Yes, please, please donate to the “slay the dragon fund” at the Dabrowski Center.

Chris: Help us hire Emma, full time.

Emma: Yes.

Chris: And pay myself too. That would be amazing.

Emma: That would be nice.

Anyway, on that happy, happy note, I'm going to say what I always say, which is, thanks, Chris. It's always a pleasure.

Chris: It is always a pleasure, Emma. Thank you.

Emma: And thank you, listeners. We love you. Thanks for sticking with us for three wonderful, amazing years.

Chris: Yes, we love you too, listeners. Thank you so much. [00:55:00]

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